Mary Pacios Chat Log 08-04-09

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(20:00:20) WatchDog: /login marypacios

(20:00:32) Harry: Hi Mary

(20:00:36) Genealem: Greetings Mary

(20:00:38) Copagirl: Hi everyone

(20:00:39) Briar: Hi Mary! Welcome

(20:00:43) Lou_Sfar: hello Mary. Glad you could make it.

(20:00:43) marypacios: Not too scared...

(20:00:48) Phoebe_Caulfield: Greetings Mary, hiya Copagirl Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:00:49) Copagirl: welcome Mary

(20:00:53) WatchDog: /login Dom..

(20:00:56) marypacios: Glad to be here

(20:00:58) Briar: Hi Copa

(20:01:00) Copagirl: Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:01:06) Briar: Hi dom

(20:01:07) Phoebe_Caulfield: we're not scary :o)

(20:01:08) Dom..: Weolcome

(20:01:11) Phoebe_Caulfield: hi dom Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:01:18) Dom..: Hi

(20:01:20) Copagirl: we're nice

(20:01:26) Briar: we aren't scary

(20:01:31) Lou_Sfar: No, as a stranger on the webs, I'll vouche for everyone in here. They're all great.

(20:01:46) marypacios: thaat's good!

(20:01:49) Phoebe_Caulfield: aw, thanks Lou

(20:02:01) Lou_Sfar: it's true.

(20:02:17) Noir_Falcon: G'day from Sydney, Mary!

(20:02:22) Copagirl: thanks for doing this Mary I enjoyed your book

(20:02:28) marypacios: So, what should we talk about?

(20:02:37) Genealem: What you did today! LOL

(20:02:43) Copagirl: Beth, as a young woman

(20:02:51) marypacios: Try to keep cool.

(20:02:52) Phoebe_Caulfield: did you mark Bette's birthday, Mary?

(20:02:54) Briar: So today is the anniversary of beth's birth

(20:03:23) Briar: we can focus on her life tonight

(20:03:30) marypacios: i think of her... She wouldd be 85.

(20:03:44) Copagirl: wow

(20:03:54) Phoebe_Caulfield: What do you think the rest of her life would have been like?

(20:04:03) WatchDog: /login Loren

(20:04:11) Briar: hi loren

(20:04:28) Loren: hi everyone

(20:04:31) Phoebe_Caulfield: hi Loren Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:04:51) marypacios: Very difficult to say. Jst neve exxpected it to end the way it did.

(20:05:10) Briar: do you think she was looking for stardom?

(20:05:13) Phoebe_Caulfield: that is a tough one

(20:05:15) Harry: How did you find out about it ?

(20:05:39) Briar: it feels to me that she'd have been happy to settle down with matt.

(20:05:39) Copagirl: was she interested in being an actress as a young woman, or just a star?

(20:05:45) Lou_Sfar: I like to imagine Beth as a little ol' grandma.

(20:05:55) Phoebe_Caulfield: me too, Lou

(20:06:10) marypacios: When I think of her, I think not only that se was stunnning, the person in ur neighborhood that people thought was "going places", but a people person, who seeemed to like almost everyone she met.

(20:06:24) Dom..: Mary: Did Beth ever lose her Boston accent?

(20:07:09) marypacios: Well,, to me at the time it wasn't an accent. I thought we sounded normal.

(20:07:23) Dom..: Can you describe her demeanor?

(20:07:23) WatchDog: /login Roger_Moore_Hair

(20:07:25) Noir_Falcon: Normal for New England, sure!

(20:07:29) Genealem: LOL...and Mary still has one!

(20:07:37) Briar: a lot of people wonder about the accent

(20:07:40) Copagirl: do you think she wanted to sound more "hollywood"

(20:07:42) Phoebe_Caulfield: hiya Roger Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:07:47) Roger_Moore_Hair: Good Evening!

(20:07:53) Copagirl: hi rmh

(20:07:54) Noir_Falcon: G'day Hair

(20:07:55) Briar: hi hair!

(20:08:07) Lou_Sfar: Was Beth thought of as a teller of talll tales when you knew her?

(20:08:24) Roger_Moore_Hair: Good Evening, Mary.

(20:08:27) marypacios: I think she wanted both, marriage and to be faamous. I think, growing up in Medford, she may have beene naive, though in some ways she seemed self-assured.

(20:08:32) Lou_Sfar: The xtra L in tall is for xtra height

(20:08:48) Harry: Mary: How did you find out what had happened ? From the family or from the newspaper ?

(20:08:56) Loren: how old was Beth when she came out to hollywood?

(20:09:22) marypacios: I think she looked and dresssed Hollywood, but was still very natural in her dealings with people.

(20:09:44) WatchDog: /login Enigmatic

(20:09:55) Lou_Sfar: hey

(20:09:57) Noir_Falcon: G'day Mr. E!

(20:10:01) marypacios: We never thought of her as telling tales. The engagement was real. Her trips to Hollywood were real.

(20:10:04) Enigmatic: Hello everybody

(20:10:05) Briar: hey enig.

(20:10:12) Phoebe_Caulfield: Hi Enigmatic Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:10:18) Lou_Sfar: doh, hey enigamatic

(20:10:27) Copagirl: was she always mysterious?

(20:10:29) marypacios: Although, someone she babysat for said Bette wass very good at telling stories.

(20:11:03) Copagirl: hi enig

(20:11:16) marypacios: I was alone taking care f my nieces, when it came over the very small TV my sister had -- the first in Stonham Masssachusetts.

(20:11:24) Briar: do you think that matt's death changed her?

(20:11:27) Phoebe_Caulfield: omg

(20:11:36) Copagirl: you must have been devestated

(20:11:43) marypacios: First time 18 or 19, second time 21 to Hollywood.

(20:11:49) Enigmatic: that must have seemed surreal

(20:12:08) Lou_Sfar: I ask because she seems to have been quite private and prone to fibbing. As a reformed fibber, I was just curious. Thanks.

(20:12:50) marypacios: She was glamorous, but to us in her neighborhod, she wasn't mysterious. Ads one of her friends (male) said, he never could equate her with the Black Dahlia.

(20:13:26) marypacios: I think Matt's death AFTER the ar ended struck her very hard.

(20:13:28) Copagirl: i guess i was thinking more "private" than mysterious

(20:13:28) Enigmatic: Apologies in advance for a question I should know the answer to - Ms Pacios, when was the last time you saw Beth?

(20:14:16) marypacios: Oh, she was private. Never discussed prroblems. Always chatty.

(20:14:48) Copagirl: wanting everyone to like her?

(20:15:28) marypacios: It was shoortly before her last trip to LA. I did see her get into the cab that took her to South Station.

(20:15:41) Phoebe_Caulfield: Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:15:58) Dom..: Mary, you have talked about her walk before. Can you describe her general comportment?

(20:17:01) WatchDog: /logout Copagirl Timeout

(20:17:52) marypacios: YYes, she wanted to be liked. I remeber the sadddest thing my mother said. We were discusssing Bette, and my mther said, "I liked Bette. I couldn't help it" as if Bette was someone you shouln't like based on sall the stories were coming in t in the papers

(20:18:18) WatchDog: /login getaway

(20:18:30) Noir_Falcon: Mary, do you think Bette/Beth really hung out or associated with the hoodlum types John Gilmore's suspect Jack Anderson Wilson talked about?

(20:18:51) Phoebe_Caulfield: hi Getaway Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:18:53) Briar: that was such an awful thing. the reputation she got branded with.

(20:18:59) Harry: Hi

(20:19:03) getaway: Hello all!

(20:19:09) Briar: hi getaway

(20:19:10) marypacios: She would stand very straight and tall, but her hips would sway. When I interviewed people who claimeeed they knew her, if they didn't mentin her walk, I knew they didn't.

(20:20:06) Enigmatic: She must have been a real headturner

(20:20:36) marypacios: Excuse my typos, but I fgure you can understand the ggist. TIn my research, ther was nothing to confirm she knew Andersson.

(20:20:49) getaway: Ms Pacios, you mentioned she left for California from South Station. I'm guessing she traveled by train then, not bus. Do you know if she went by rail most of the time, or...?

(20:21:32) Noir_Falcon: No prob about the typos. Thanks!

(20:21:44) marypacios: If she walked into this room heads would turn. Mark Hansen referred to her as the prettiest girl in Hollywod.

(20:21:50) WatchDog: /logout Briar Timeout

(20:22:16) Lou_Sfar: Did Beth ever mention her time in Florida? And if so, what did she say?

(20:22:20) WatchDog: /login Copagirl

(20:23:22) WatchDog: /login Briar

(20:23:25) marypacios: I don't recall her talking about Florida. She might have, but I think I was more intersted in Hollywod.

(20:23:47) Briar: sorry, i must have timed out.

(20:24:01) Copagirl: i got booted out

(20:24:01) marypacios: What is timing out?

(20:24:26) Noir_Falcon: That's when your connection drops out, Mary. You get booted out of the chatroom.

(20:24:27) Briar: i didn't ask a question

(20:24:35) getaway: Do you know if she traveled by train or bus usually?

(20:24:54) Briar: i'm trying to keep it at an easy pace.

(20:25:18) marypacios: I really don't know. I assume during the war it would have been bus, and afterwards, train.

(20:25:31) Lou_Sfar: Do you happen to know what Beth's favorite movie was?

(20:26:00) Enigmatic: that would make sense, the military had first priority for the rail system during the war

(20:26:01) Copagirl: was she the type of person who would go to san diego with no where to stay and ask a stranger to stay, or do you think she may have been meeting/looking for someone?

(20:26:10) Dom..: Or her favorite singer?

(20:26:20) marypacios: She liked th eginger Rogers & Fred Astaire mvies, her favorites were anything with Deanna Durbin.

(20:26:32) Phoebe_Caulfield: she looked like Deanna Durbin

(20:26:45) marypacios: Don't know her favorite singer. She liked to dance.

(20:26:49) Copagirl: did she wear any special perfume that you recall?

(20:27:35) Noir_Falcon: Guests cannot see links in posts. -- pic of Deanna Durbin here

(20:27:44) marypacios: Lillies of the valley remind me of Bette. So, I'm nt sure if that is the fragrance I smelled.

(20:28:01) Copagirl: nice

(20:28:03) Dom..: Mary, it's a pleasure to hear some personal and positive comments. Thank you.

(20:28:15) WatchDog: /logout Harry Timeout

(20:28:30) WatchDog: /login Harry

(20:28:32) Copagirl: i love hearing about her as a real live person

(20:28:34) marypacios: Oh, yeah, she did look like Deanna durbin, but the actress who she looked the most like, was the one who played Wonder Woman.

(20:29:23) Phoebe_Caulfield: yes, she does!

(20:29:30) marypacios: For me, I think of Bette short, the next door neighbor separate from the Black Dahlia.

(20:29:33) getaway: Lynda Carter?

(20:29:35) Lou_Sfar: Linda carter

(20:29:50) marypacios: Yeah, Lynda Carter

(20:30:06) Lou_Sfar: ah my 1st love, Lynda Carter.

(20:30:07) Copagirl: that's why i love your book,

(20:30:25) Phoebe_Caulfield: Lillies of the valley - we were wondering about that, even have a thread about it Guests cannot see images in posts.

(20:30:38) Briar: that is what is such a sad thing. people who knew her in medford vs. the image of the black dahlia

(20:30:42) marypacios: Thank you. It all happened so long ago. Devastating to the neighborhood.

(20:30:53) Dom..: Have you kept up with the family?

(20:31:10) Enigmatic: "Black Dahlia" was such a typical Hearst thing though

(20:31:37) Phoebe_Caulfield: indeed, Enigmatic

(20:31:37) Harry: Is soemone keeping a transcript of this. I lost mine when I got timed out.

(20:31:58) Noir_Falcon: I can copy this whole thing without any probs, Harry.

(20:32:02) Copagirl: me too harry

(20:32:16) Lou_Sfar: What do you think of folks like us here on this site and others that focus almost obsessively on Beth?

(20:32:38) marypacios: the last thing I said to her sister was that I would try to do right by Bette. They are very private

(20:32:53) Dom..: Who do you think was closest to her in her family?

(20:32:55) Briar: but it often seems like victims are judged by the public until people forget that they WERE a victim

(20:33:19) marypacios: Her youngest sister.

(20:33:33) Briar: yes harry, watchdog keeps it

(20:33:33) Phoebe_Caulfield: Eleanor?

(20:33:45) Phoebe_Caulfield: Muriel

(20:34:05) getaway: Have you talked with her in recent times?

(20:34:05) marypacios: Eleanor is my sister.

(20:34:15) Harry: Mary: I'm sorry I must have missed this but are you saying that you have lost touch with her sister ?

(20:34:25) Phoebe_Caulfield: oops, you all seem like sisters to me :o)

(20:34:36) marypacios: Yes, I've lost touch.

(20:35:44) getaway: Do you think the family has home movies of her or more photos that we have never seen?

(20:35:46) Briar: lou asked a good question What do you think of folks like us here on this site and others that focus almost obsessively on Beth?"

(20:36:19) WatchDog: /logout Enigmatic Timeout

(20:36:21) marypacios: What I think more or less depends on whether people are looking fr information or are just spinning wild destructive hypothesis.

(20:36:27) Harry: I think that Muriel is the only one left, all the others are gone as far as I know. But isn't Larry Harnisch meant to be in touch with them ?

(20:37:18) marypacios: Don't forgget. The Short family was hard hit by the Depression. Home Movies were ut of the question. Plus during the war movie film was at a premium.

(20:37:26) Dom..: Mary, have you ever tried to find out more about Cleo Short?

(20:37:58) Copagirl: did you know cleo short?

(20:38:06) marypacios: Yes, Larry is.

(20:38:18) Briar: it's a rare case. most of us have a personal reasons for our interest and the people i've made friends with through these sites are respectful and genuinely care about her

(20:38:42) marypacios: No, never met Cleo. He had deserted the family before they moved into our neighbrhood.

(20:39:30) Harry: Well why wouldn't Larry put you in touch with them, or is that part of what I missed, a falling out maybe ?

(20:40:00) Briar: I can't imagine what that must have been like, for his daughters and especially his wife, phoebe.

(20:40:11) marypacios: I think it iss good when people realize how maligned she has been. I've often felt that sometimes the victim has been confused with the heinous nature of the crime.

(20:40:43) Dom..: Do you believe that the family will ever tell their own story and allow a more intimate look into her life?

(20:40:48) Copagirl: it is so hideous people want to think it wasn't random

(20:41:35) Briar: the regulars here are very moved by the tragedy. larry told me horror stories of people and their morbid curiosity.

(20:41:38) Phoebe_Caulfield: it

(20:41:49) Phoebe_Caulfield: it's fear - no one wants to think it could happen to them

(20:43:00) Phoebe_Caulfield: it's the purple prose and fabricated junk in newpaper articles etc that I hate

(20:43:09) Lou_Sfar: I think that marginalizing the victims life is a way of avoiding the reality that a living person was killed. Most people don't even think about a victim being an individual with their own hopes, dreams, loves, and such. Then there's sickos.

(20:43:36) marypacios: I had guarded Muriel's address. someone went into my files and threatened to sue the family and alot of my other sources if they helped me in my book. I felt so bad. Most of the people knew the threats were idle. But the family couldn't have any more hassels. This was long beffore Larry Harnisch started his research.

(20:43:39) getaway: Was your own family as affected by her death as you have been?

(20:44:12) Briar: you are on good terms with larry?

(20:44:13) Phoebe_Caulfield: That's terrible, Mary!

(20:44:20) Lou_Sfar: That's too bad about your file Mary.

(20:44:40) Lou_Sfar: BRB

(20:45:08) Phoebe_Caulfield: Was it one of your suspects who did that?

(20:45:14) marypacios: They were affected, especially my father who thought Bette was someone special. And my Aunt, my mother, my sisters. Maybe not quite as much as me, becaause I idlized her. When I grew up I was going to be just like her.

(20:45:21) Dom..: Mary, did you meet people in Los Angeles who knew her?

(20:45:22) Copagirl: terrible

(20:45:45) Harry: "someone went into my files and threatened to sue the family and alot of my other sources if they helped me in my book"



Nuff said.

(20:45:51) WatchDog: /login Enigmatic

(20:46:00) marypacios: I'm on good terms with Larry. I resspect his researrch, his adherence to facts.

(20:46:20) marypacios: Yes, I did meet some Hollywood people who knew her.

(20:46:40) Dom..: Can you say who?

(20:47:31) marypacios: I'm sure I've mentioned people in my book.

(20:47:32) Briar: larry is very protective. he's not the same in person as he seems online

(20:47:41) getaway: How do you feel about Orson Welles today?

(20:48:34) Enigmatic: Yeha, Larry is nowhere near the grouch some of his online writings might lead you to expect

(20:48:42) marypacios: I still wonder. With Orson Welles, my approach was NOT to try to prove he did it, but to try to ELIMINATE him as a suspect, to look for evidence that proved he couldn’t have done it. Was he even in Los Angeles at the time? Could his and Elizabeth Short’s paths have even crossed? The more I searched the weirder it became.

(20:48:46) Dom..: Did you ever try to contact Marjorie Graham or Ann Toth or Lynn Martin?

(20:49:42) marypacios: I think Larry might get annoyed at some of the sloppy research out there and the spinning of fantasies. Deefinitely no grouch.

(20:49:51) getaway: If it weren't for you, I don't believe Orson Welles would be mentioned.

(20:50:03) Briar: ann toth spoke of her like the people in medford did. not the black dahlia persona.

(20:50:25) Phoebe_Caulfield: yes, I liked that too, Briar

(20:50:28) Copagirl: has anyone ever commented on the funhouse props?

(20:50:53) Briar: like i said, larry has dealt with the morbid sickos

(20:50:55) marypacios: Ann Toth was a true friend. never could find Marjorie or Lynn. And Ann Toth was dead.

(20:50:59) Lou_Sfar: Yeah Ann Toth seemed to be Beth's only real friend.

(20:51:40) Lou_Sfar: Do you know where and when Ann Toth died?

(20:52:18) marypacios: About the funhouse, people have commented privately to me,

(20:52:28) Noir_Falcon: Mary, do you think Bette ever made it into a film as an extra?

(20:52:51) marypacios: I don't know exactly whenann toth died.

(20:53:43) Dom..: Did you dispute some of John Gilmore's statements before he published his book?

(20:54:16) marypacios: About being in films. Within a week after her death, no one wanted to be connected to her.

(20:55:07) Copagirl: makes sense...

(20:55:35) Briar: did you see the black dahlia movie?

(20:56:12) Phoebe_Caulfield: so you think no, she didn't; or that she may have but no one would confirm it?

(20:57:02) Noir_Falcon: Maybe they cut the footage out to keep away negative publicity?

(20:57:39) marypacios: I didn't see the Black Dahlia movie. IFriends told me about it. I read how dePalma went to pains to depict the body accurately. My comment: Too bad he wasn't as careful to depict the person acurately.

(20:57:54) Dom..: You and John Gilmore take such different approaches to her story, yet you worked together for a time. Did you disagree with his research or his approach?

(20:58:04) Briar: It was an atrocity

(20:58:22) Harry: Noir: In the movies there is no such thing as bad publicity :

(20:59:06) Enigmatic: It was okay as a movie, but blurred the line between history and fiction too much for my taste

(20:59:46) Briar: i thought it was exploitation

(21:00:49) marypacios: I really dn't want to comment on otheer authors specifically. What I will say is that smost (except Harnisch who is a very faithful to facts) put forth speculation as if it were facts.

(21:00:53) getaway: What was she like around her own family?

(21:01:06) Noir_Falcon: Well, "negative publicity" was off the top of my head. I really meant that maybe someone would want to cut out any footage if there had been to avoid being associated with a murder victim, Harry.

(21:01:40) Lou_Sfar: I think I'm the only person here that really liked the De Palma movie as a movie. As a documentry, not so much.

(21:01:45) Briar: like harry said there's no such thing as bad publicity in movies, and in the case of this movie it exploited her. it did nothing to further her case.

(21:02:07) marypacios: I mostly remember her with her yunger sister. She definitely wasn't a runnaway. Bete had a good relationship with her mother. wrote home once or twice a week.

(21:02:08) Harry: Mary: From your timeline:



1944

– She work's at Mammy's Restaurant until the latter part of 1944

– March: She took a trip to Atlanta, Georgia to visit Matt Gordon

– April: She went to Miami Beach, Florida.

• September: Bette meets Gordon Fickling in Miami Beach Florida

• November: Bette back in Medford for a visit Thanksgiving

• December: Bette in Miami Beach, Florida: meets Matt Gordon New Year's Eve



You say that she went to visit Matt Gordon in Atlanta in March 1944 but

then you say that she met Matt Gordon in December 1944 NewYears Eve.



What was source for these two dates ?

(21:03:00) Noir_Falcon: James Ellroy's novel and DePalma's film adapated from it are fiction, so I just take them as such. I like a good mystery/crime novel or film. I'm not squeamish in that respect at all.

(21:04:44) Dom..: Mary: Do you have any stories we haven't heard before?

(21:04:52) marypacios: I'll lhave to recheck that. I tthink the confusion came in that she met Matt Gordon, I believe, on New Year's Eve. I put together the timeline from a variety of sources. Thanks for pointing out the dsicrepancy!

(21:04:58) Genealem: Mary...sorry, it's after 7 pm here and I must go...out to dinner with friends...guess what...for Sushi! LOL I'll email you later tonight. Copy and paste the ending after 19:03:00 for me. I've a copy of all this for you. E

(21:05:02) Briar: me either, but i felt they capitalized on a real crime, but furthered the myths.

(21:05:43) Briar: it will be saved gen

(21:05:45) Phoebe_Caulfield: night Genealem Guests cannot see images in posts.

(21:06:00) Noir_Falcon: G'night Genealem

(21:06:12) Lou_Sfar: They did, but Ellroy's got a deeper connection to Beth than just $$$

(21:06:22) Briar: night gen

(21:06:40) Noir_Falcon: I agree with Lou Sfar on Ellroy.

(21:06:44) Lou_Sfar: I'm going to go make an ice cream cone in honor of Beth's birthday.

(21:06:49) Enigmatic: Funny, I read that to mean she met him for the first time in March and met him to spend New Year's Eve together

(21:07:10) Lou_Sfar: that's how I read it too Enigmatic

(21:07:46) Briar: i didn't think they knew each other long at all.

(21:07:57) marypacios: SHE MET HIM IN FLORIDA. THE ATLANTA REFEREENCE CAME FROM THE D. A. FILES. Ooops. didn't notice my caps was n.

(21:08:16) Dom..: It's been a great evening. Thank you for the wonderful chat session. Good night all.

(21:08:19) WatchDog: /logout Dom..

(21:08:30) Phoebe_Caulfield: Mary, is there anything you have changed your mind about since you wrote your book? Any new info giving you new ideas?

(21:08:48) Enigmatic: 17 months if they met in March, more like 8 if they met in December, 1944

(21:09:16) marypacios: That's what it was like during the war. Well, time to go. Maybe we can do this again and pick a particular topic.

(21:09:29) WatchDog: /logout marypacios

[ravenman71]

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Guests cannot see quotes in posts.

I feel the same way after reading some one of the other books out there.

[Copagirl]

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Thanks for posting those in such an easy to read fashion. I couldn't read the Hodel ones because of how they were formatted.

[Mystery Train]

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I see this chat went very well. I really enjoyed reading this. Thanks to everyone involved.